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Ungodly Trolls & Debaters

 

When someone bullies you, provokes you, or belittles you because you are following Christ, what do you do?  What they are doing to you is called trolling.  Trolling can take place on Blogs or YouTube or in social or work situations.  How do you handle it?

What do you say if they reject Christ and just want to argue?

Short Answer:

Trolls want to argue. The secret of dealing with them is to avoid arguing. How do you do this when it doesn't matter what you say, they want to argue with that? It's as easy is 1, 2, 3:

  1. Tell them whatever God puts on your heart to tell them. That may be that God created everything just like He is telling you through the Bible, that God exists, that they need Jesus, or whatever God gives you.
  2. Don't try to prove it to them by some kind of evidence. Giving evidence will just get them using their well-honed rationalization and logical fallacy skills to argue against the evidence. They can rationalize anything.
  3. Be honest. Many Christians are intimidated and fail to acknowledge that they actually do personally know Jesus. But we all do know Him. Everyone who follows Him is led by Him. Tell them that you know this by divine revelation and that they can check it out by going to Jesus and asking Him.

Example:

Rocky: "The thing is that you have the responsibility to know about Jesus for yourself. Each person is responsible for himself or herself. And Jesus is verifiable. Here is the method to verify and validate. Go to Him in sincerity, respect, and a desire to do His will. Yield yourself to Him. Ask Him to come to you and to forgive you for your sins. He will then begin to show you not only His reality but His will and the validity of the Bible. I can't make you do that though. It wouldn't do any good if I could. If you are claiming that you don't know, God says that you do, so you would have to convince Him. What I think is of no consequence to anyone.

Sandy: "That's the logical fallacy of argument from consequences."

Rocky: "There is a fallacy of appeal to consequences, that is, using consequences as proof that something is true rather than that something either ought to be done or ought not to be done. Consequences cannot prove that the cause of the consequences is actually something real--that the threat is real. The fact that there are consequences is not a fallacy. It is fallacious to say that consequences prove anything to be true. But that is not what happened here. And I didn't use my own experience as proof or consequences as proof. I told you that I have proved it to myself and that you can also prove it to yourself. And I told you how. As to consequences, there are consequences in life. To realize this is not a fallacy.

Say you are backing toward a cliff and someone shouts out to stop or you will fall, but you don't turn around an look. You just keep backing up. To you, there is no proof that you can see. They tell you to turn around and look but you refuse. Will there be consequences when you fall? Of course. However, just because someone tells you there is a cliff and you will fall and that they can see it, these are not fallacies because they are not given to convince you of the truth of the cliff but to warn you of the presence of the cliff. You have to take action to see the cliff for yourself.

I don't want to try to convince you of anything. I have told you the Truth and told you how to verify and validate. I didn't tell you the consequences because you already know all about those to the point where you react to any indication that there might be consequences. I didn't tell you these things as proof of anything, so there is no fallacy. As to the proof, you would find the proof by following the instructions I gave you: seeking God in that specific way. You didn't say that you would not do this. Whether or not you do is up to you and doesn't affect me, since only you have the responsibility for your decision and the consequences. The walking backwards towards a cliff is a very accurate analogy. It gets all of what I mentioned just now except that the consequence is understated."

Repetition

A lot of these trolls are Atheists. Post Modernism is a natural conclusion from Atheism. After all, if we are the result of a random explosion and the way the particles since that explosion have bumped into each other, then our thoughts are really random. There cannot possibly be any truth or any error. There is just stuff. People are worthless. Language is meaningless. Thoughts are random. Reason is just an illusion that we developed for survival. There are only winners and losers. Students are advised to be winners.

Bill Nye used this tactic with Ken Ham on several issues during a recent debate. Bill Nye kept repeating the same things asking why Ken Ham didn't have an answer. Ken Ham kept repeating the answer and giving more information, thinking that this would have solved the problem. It is bewildering to a reasonable man like Ken Ham when a game-player like Bill Nye acts like a complete lunitic in order to "win." There is no interest in truth among these people. They disbelieve the concept of truth. In a public debate, it might make sense to spend several minutes to emphatically point out what is going on and how the other debater (Bill Nye, in this case) is being irrational and playing with the minds of the audience.

So, you don't do anything that gives you problems if you get caught, but everything you can get away with is OK. The trick is to get away with as much as you can without having any really bad ramifications. This is who is generally arguing with you.

Though Post Modernsim is self-refuting and irrational in many ways, that is where many people live now. It's sad but true. In Romans 1, it talks about those whom God has turned over to a reprobate mind. God gives them completely over to a mind that is incapable of righteousness, the human mind. God doesn't bother with them any more. You need to seek God, but the Holy Spirit will let you know when it is time for you to let go as well, just as God has. They may turn someday, but, for now, they are not making any sense.

So, they come with the same tired arguments. You answer them. They come back as if you never answered them and ask why you haven't answered them. You are wasting your time, yet, if you don't answer, they are playing to the crowd, like Bill Nye the big-bang-billions-of-years-molecules-to-man guy. What do you do?

At a certain point, just keep posting the same exact thing as an answer, noting that they are repeating the same things. Include a link to this page, just as a final touch. They will accuse you of repeating the same thing. Duh! Just post the same thing back that tells them they are repeating the same thing. At a certain point, there is no need to read their post. Why waste the time. Just cut and paste quickly and go on with life.

Example:

I have repeatedly answered your question. You, have no answer to what I wrote, so you refuse to even acknowledge the answer. You just keep repeating yourself, saying that I have not answered when I did answer. Since this is obviously a game on your part, let me repeat. I didn't ask you to take my word for it. I didn't even ask you to find out for yourself. I told you that you COULD find out for yourself, not that you have to.

Every argument against God is based on arbitrary assumptions, made-up stories, irrational thinking, and outright lies. In science, we all look at the same evidence, the same observations. You choose to interpret them through the filter of arbitrary assumptions, made-up stories, and outright lies. I choose to believe what God is saying to me as He leads me moment-by-moment. While I cannot prove this to you and you can't prove your flimflam to me, you can verify Jesus Christ and His revelation for yourself. Everyone who seeks God in sincere respect, humility, persistence, and a will to do His will does find Him. You can do this. You must come with respect, because God doesn't reveal anything to anyone who is stubborn and won't consider the revelation. If you do, He will reveal Himself to you. He will reveal to you that the Bible is His Word and that it is without error. He will begin to reveal Himself and His will and the history of the world to you through the Bible and through many other means. You will no longer be a sucker for all the flimflam that is out there among the ungodly.

The analogy, that you don't want to understand, is that this is as if you are backing toward a cliff and someone shouts out to stop or you will fall, but you won't turn around and look at the evidence. You just keep backing up. You just keep wanting to argue by whatever means you can think of, even though you make no sense. So someone tells you to turn around and look but you refuse to look at the evidence. Will there be consequences when you fall? Of course.

However, just because someone tells you there is a cliff and you will fall and that they can see it, these are not fallacies because they are not given to convince you of the truth of the cliff but to warn you of the presence of the cliff. Demanding proof is silly when you just have to look.

But you refuse and keep backing up. In the same way, you are heading toward destruction. You have the responsibility for your decision and the consequences, and you are the only one who can turn toward Christ so that He can reveal Himself to you. No one can do that for you. The cliff analogy is accurate, except that the consequence is understated. http://seekfind.net/Ungodly_Trolls__Debaters.html

Attacks

Some people attack just to attack.  Their minds are closed.  They mean to bully, provoke, and belittle.  This is known as trolling.  What do you do. It seems that once an ungodly person/Atheist has become hardened to the point that they are spending their days out trolling on Christian YouTube videos and social media, that person doesn't have an open mind at all.

An easy way to handle these people is to tell them the truth:

Every evidence that is used against God consists of made-up stories (lies), arbitrary assumptions (lies), or irrational statements (insanity). We have not followed cleverly designed made-up stories, arbitrary assumptions, or irrational statements. Rather, we follow the Living Christ, Who leads us and speaks the Utterances of absolute, genuine fullness of Life to us.

Whatever they come back with will consist of made-up stories (lies), arbitrary assumptions (lies), or irrational statements (insanity). This is true whether they say "Evolution is science," "There is no God," "God doesn't speak to you," "You are stupid," "You don't understand science," "I don't have enough evidence to believe," "There is no evidence for God," or any other thing, so just say some variation of the following:

Thank you for providing an excellent example: Every evidence that is used against God consists of made-up stories (lies), arbitrary assumptions (lies), or irrational statements (insanity). We have not followed cleverly designed made-up stories, arbitrary assumptions, or irrational statements. Rather, we follow the Living Christ, Who leads us and speaks the Utterances of absolute, genuine fullness of Life to us. (example using this on an blog)

You don't need to answer all their foolishness. If you do answer them, you end up throwing your pearls in front of swine and dogs. They simply turn on you. There is no need to spend that much effort.

If you say:

No thought is stronger than it's starting point.   My starting point is God, and you have full access to Him.  Whoever keeps sincerely, respectfully, & submissively seeking Him finds Him.  "Today, if you hear His Voice, don't harden your heart/mind."  He reveals that the Bible is accurate.  Your starting point is naturalistic science, so prove Naturalism to me.  Show scientific proof that God does not reveal anything to anyone--no more flimflam.

Typical troll retort:

Your starting point is your religious opinion.

Your response:

Perhaps you think you are all-knowing? My starting point is God, and everyone has full access to Him. Whoever keeps sincerely, respectfully, & submissively seeking Him finds Him. "Today, if you hear His Voice, don't harden your heart/mind." He reveals that the Bible is accurate. A naturalist evolutionist's starting point is naturalistic science, but can they prove Naturalism? They must show scientific proof that God does not reveal anything to anyone--end the flimflam.

There is no need for a detailed answer to their nasty, illogical, factually incorrect remarks.  Once you are sure that they are insincere, don't waste time or energy.  Answer briefly and use a universal reply such as this one.  You can't always do this, but most of the time, it is all that is required.  Too many Christians get wrapped up in a nasty argument where they end up looking as if they were anti-science, when the reality is that without the God of the Bible Who is holding everything together in an ordered system, there is no way to do science.  You certainly have to have predictable laws to do science, and Naturalism would only produce randomness.  So don't let them push you into the anti-science corner whatever you do.  And don't get into angry arguments that make you say or write words that didn't come from Christ.

Jesus said, "If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. . . . when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.'" So look for an open door, an open mind. Don't try to beat anyone into submission who does not want Jesus. You will sense the one who promotes peace because your peace (the peace of Christ) will rest upon them and you will sense it. When you sense that your peace returns to you rather than resting on a person, then let them know that they bear the responsibility before God for their decision, that you have said what God had for you to say, and that they can be sure of this, the Kingdom of God has come near to them. Speak as the very mouthpiece of God. Speak the words that He gives you and nothing more.

Detailed Answer:

Trolling is a word that was formerly applied only to fishing.  Now, it applies to people who try to disrupt conversations, primarily on the Internet, and to try to get you to respond to them by being obnoxious.  Some people also do this in social settings or work settings, particularly against Christians.

So you see a great Christian YouTube video or read a great Christian blog and you comment.  Immediately, here is an ungodly person using bullying tactics and ridicule (grade school stuff).  This can also happen at work or in social settings face to face.  It is one thing when a person has an open mind and wants to discuss.  It's a waste of time to keep responding to someone who is simply trying to pick a fight and wants a nasty argument.  Never wrestle with a pig.  You'll both get very dirty, and then you will find out that the pig likes it.

The person often can’t even form a sentence in a way that makes sense, they refer to science and logic but have no idea how to use either one.  Such is the plight of the willingly ignorant.  So what do you do?  Their remarks, that are obviously false, are out there to deceive the next person to look at the page.  You may think that their comments are immature, illogical, or just consist of ridicule and bullying, so no one would believe them, but the Universities use these same tactics very successfully against Christian students and deceive a very high percentage of them.  Bad logic is not always easy to spot.  If you answer, you are answering a fool, but  you don’t have time or space to write a book on logic and to write a book on science.  So what do you do?

The Bible addresses this problem in a proverb that perfectly describes the catch 22 where you can't win whether you answer or don't answer.  This is what the ungodly troll is hoping for.  The proverb goes like this:

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you also be like to him.  Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.  Proverbs 26:4-5

So when you answer the troll, it is endless.  There is no logic the troll will respond to.  They want to fight.  You end up looking as foolish as they are, so they have won a victory against Christ and His Church.  But when you don't answer the troll, the troll and those who are watching think that you have no answer and that the troll has stumped you, so they have won a victory against Christ and His Church.

First, you can know a few things about these people. 

  • The story about not believing isn’t actually true.  Romans 1 tells us that they know in their innermost minds, but they may very likely have made themselves very callous to the voice of God and their eyes may be blinded by sin.  God has left so much evidence that those who claim there is no God or that Christ is not Him are lying.  They won’t admit it but they know.
  • The problem is rarely lack of evidence.  The problem is rebellion.  No one can be open-minded to God and open-minded to Satan at the same time.
  • In most cases, their intent is the same as those who burn down churches, use megaphones to disrupt ministry, or march into churches to disrupt services.  They don't want anyone to be able to speak about Jesus Christ, and they are perpetrating a kind of terrorism to silence Christians.
  • The reason many of their remarks don’t seem to fit the thing that they are commenting on is because there are websites devoted to the Ungodly who want to troll Christians.  They have canned responses to anything you write.  The ungodly person making the comment often has no idea the meaning of what they are writing, since they are just cutting and pasting in many cases.
  • This trolling is a destructive sport like destroying property as a gag.  The goal is to be as obnoxious as possible.
  • They are ungodly.  Without Christ, the human mind doesn’t work properly.  They are under the influence of evil spirits who guide their thoughts.  If you want to know what it is like to talk to a demon, just talk to a person who speaks directly out of his or her natural mind.  They can be charming, funny, destructive, mean, deceptive--whatever it takes.
  • Though they may often write at about the level of a twelve-year-old, some of them are quite old.  There is one 80-year-old former refrigerator repair man named Jeff who is all over many Christian blogs.
  • They may want to set up a scenario where they go to websites that have thousands of fictitious "errors in the Bible" and copy-paste one in, then you need to go out and find the answer on the Internet.  Then, they just go copy-paste another one in.  They like this because you have to work a lot harder than they do and they can keep you and 20 other Christians busy for a year and resolve nothing.  All this is just a smoke screen because they don't want to acknowledge Jesus Christ, their Creator God.

Second, you need to know some things about yourself.

  • You are better off questioning their starting point of Naturalism, Materialism, Evolutionism, and Atheism than making too many statements.  Often, they will come in after you have tried to encourage a fellow Christian, and they will say something against God, Christ, or Christians.  If you have said something about your experience with Christ, perhaps how Christ has led you, they will come in with something like, "Your religion is just an opinion."  You are better off asking for clarification and perhaps how they think that they know about our inner personal experiences.  They may say that God doesn't exist or that God doesn't speak to anyone.  At that point, you can ask them how they know.  They will probably say something about reason or science or logic.  Then you can ask them to use reason or science or logic, whatever they claimed, to prove what they are claiming.  (examples below).
  • You will be tempted to give in and to think that you can be successful defeating naturalistic arguments even if you take, as a starting point, Naturalism.  You cannot.  You see, the argument really goes like this: "Let's assume Naturalism.  Now let's prove Naturalism.  It is self-evident since we already assumed it."  You can't win this if you start with the lie.  The more you buy into Naturalism, the more susceptible you are.  God leads you.  He has ways of letting you know that something is not His will and something is His will.  You are not perfect at hearing Him, but you are learning to hear His Voice and respond.  All who seek Him find Him.  Being shy about our root premise--which is revelation.
  • You will have trouble with the personal attacks, bullying, childish behavior, etc. that comes from the other person.  You cannot let this get to you.  Go to prayer.  Look to Jesus for strength.
  • You will be tempted to try to use raw logic without God.  It doesn't matter how much science you can point to, these people don't respond to that.

You may want to keep in mind that Martin Luther would not discuss any controversial topic with anyone who would not take Scripture as the ultimate authority.

You may get something like,

Religion is just opinion, but science is proven. 

You look at it and you wonder what it means.  Science it proven?  So you ask how they are defining science: the method? the facts that have been discovered such as fossils or the speed of light? the opinions of scientists who are trying to interpret the fact? something else?  The person answers,

All the branches of science. 

?????  All the branches of science are proven?  That doesn’t make sense.  (Keep in mind that this person isn’t trying to make sense.  They are only trying to disrupt ministry.  It doesn't matter what they say just so long as they can intimidate and confuse people.  You could answer:

Well we agree that it is proven that all the branches of science exist.

Of course, this will get you nowhere.  You are conversing with a person who is trying to deceive and disrupt.  They are like a kid breaking windows at random or a terrorist who runs through a town shooting at people randomly.  These are people who Satan has assigned the task of keeping you busy with nonsense so you can’t do any real ministry.

As soon as you know you have a troll, it is time to shut them down.  This is easy to do with a question that they cannot answer with their clever lies or their confusing language.

Do not answer their questions and attacks, because they will make every attempt to change the subject by illogical attacks that seem like they would be easy to rebut.  However, you are dealing with someone who cares nothing for logic or science or truth, except to use the words “logic” and “science” to try to make people think that their statements have some validity.

Attack the starting point of all their logic.  That would be the concepts of atheism, Naturalism, or materialism.  You could also attack evolutionism.

Though they usually try to keep from making any assertion of Atheism, Naturalism, Evolutionism, or Materialism, it slips out or is implied.  Since these irrational viewpoints are their starting point, their foundation of all their thoughts, they are easy to attack by simply asking a question.  Since they are irrational, they are very easy to attack.

Let’s take the example above. 

Religion is just opinion, but science is proven.

You can answer,

I have no problem with science, but your comment, ‘religion is just opinion’ is the same as claiming that God doesn’t lead His people and reveal truth to them.  That is a very rash claim since millions of Christians have the experience of being led by God and personally knowing Jesus Christ.  You believe in science, so prove to me, using science, that God doesn’t lead any person.

Don’t try to teach the person.  This person is a troll.  They are not listening.  The person may come back:

These are only your opinions.

You could explain that the Holy Spirit is the One Who speaks through you, and that, if anything does come from your natural mind, you pray that those words be forgotten and put aside.  You could explain that this doesn't mean that you are not immune from being fooled by your own mind.  You could explain that the Bible commands us to speak as of the oracle (mouthpiece) of God, and that proves that this is the way that God wants us to speak.  You could note that Martin Luther believed this.  He wrote in German,

Ich bin sehr gewiss, dass mein Wort nitt mein, sondern Christus Wort sei, so muss mein Mund auch des sein, des Wort er redet

which is translated as

I am confident that it is not my word, but Christ's word, so my mouth is His who utters the words. 

Of course, he realized that his words needed to be giving God's interpretation of Scripture rather than his own opinion.  And he endeavored to keep himself from pulling doctrine out of the air.  "If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen."  1 Peter 4:11  If we aren't speaking in this way, we ought not to open our mouths.

and all of that would do you no good with a troll.  The ungodly want to level the playing field.  You have the advantage if you don't give it up.  One of the oldest sales tricks in the book is to try to make the worst feature of your product seem like the biggest problem and to make the most important benefit of the competitor seem like the worst thing about that product.  The troll is trying to sell you that his lack of authority, the fact that science has to constantly adjust because of the many erroneous claims that are constantly being discovered, that this weakness is a great strength.  At the same time, they want to try to convince you that God's holy Presence with you is your imagination.  They want to tell you that the supernatural belief that God has given to you and the fact that He speaks to you through Scripture is simply your opinion.  In fact, it is God's opinion.  We know that there is no part of our doctrine that is complete and that God wants to be able to give us an ever deeper understanding of Him.  However, what we know from Him is real even if God has not told us everything yet.  And all that you say will be lost on them because you are casting your pearls before swine.  Better that you simply ask them to show the scientific proof that they have that God doesn't speak to anyone anywhere.  Then, don't let them throw you off of that question.

Just as Martin Luther knew that God spoke through Scripture and strove not to consider arguments or reasoning that added to or took from Scripture, so the ungodly seek to only consider those arguments and reasoning that spring from Naturalism, Materialism, Unitarianism, and Atheism.  The discussion is really about the platform, the foundation.  All that is built on that is just fluff in this situation of dealing with trolls.  You need to tell the troll, who is claiming that all proof must be based on naturalistic science, that you will only discuss these things if we can use the Bible as the ultimate authority.

I don't mind discussing with you as long as we can agree to take the Bible as the ultimate authority.  If you think that naturalistic science is the ultimate authority, then prove Naturalism to me using naturalistic science.  I will want to know about the experiments you perform to prove this so that I can repeat them and test them because this is how science works.

Watch them jump off their soap box of science:

Naturalism is self-evident.

Naturalism is only self-evident to you because you have presupposed it and built a worldview in which it is self-evident to you.  But that is a dream world.  I don't mind discussing with you as long as we can agree to take the Bible as the ultimate authority.  If you think that naturalistic science is the ultimate authority, then prove Naturalism to me using naturalistic science.  I will want to know about the experiments you perform to prove this so that I can repeat them and test them because this is how science works.

No.  You are in a dream world.  I'm not.

If you think that naturalistic science is the ultimate authority, then prove Naturalism to me using naturalistic science.  I will want to know about the experiments you perform to prove this so that I can repeat them and test them because this is how science works.

You could just say:

No thought is stronger than it's starting point.   My starting point is Jesus, & you have full access to Him since whoever keeps sincerely, respectfully, & submissively seeking Him finds Him.  "Today, if you hear His Voice, don't harden your heart/mind."  He reveals that the Bible is accurate.  Your starting point is naturalistic science, including God doesn't speak.  So show scientific proof that God does not reveal anything to anyone.

A person like this may clarify their position.  If so, use their own words.  For example:

My starting point is Jesus, Whom you can meet for yourself and verify. So let's see your "real evidence from the different sources of sciences through experiments and observations" that proves your belief that "there is simply nothing confirming the genesis for example. The same way there is nothing that would confirm existence of supernatural"--in your own words.

Don’t waste the time that God has given you to dream up clever ways to deal with these people.   They will change the subject, but you can use the same answer each time.  Just cut and paste it into a handy note pad, and each time they try to change the subject, paste it in.  You may have to change a word or two to satisfy the rules of the blog.  Avoid the temptation to answer stupid comments.  They will say things that just display ignorance and inability to use reason, and you will be tempted to answer.  You cannot reason with a fool.

If you continue to repeat the same question and the fact that they have not answered and give them no new fuel, they then realize that they are making it obvious to all future people who read the blog that they have no answer and they stop making comments.  Every time you answer one of their ignorant statements, you give them new fuel and prolong the idiocy.  There may be exceptions to this.  There is no end to the energy of ungodly people to think up new ways of doing evil.  If you run into some, please use the comment box below to let us know.

Examples:

You make an interesting though unsubstantiated assertion. So let's see your "real evidence from the different sources of sciences through experiments and observations" that proves your belief that "there is simply nothing confirming the genesis for example. The same way there is nothing that would confirm existence of supernatural"--in your own words.

You claimed that you know by science that there is no God.  Please provide enough detail of the scientific work that was done so that anyone could repeat the experiments and verify your statement.

You claimed that evolution is scientific fact.  Please show the proof that evolution actually happened.  I'm not interested in stories about how evolution might have happened or even could have happened or that adaptation happens.  If it could have happened, then all we would have is two competing historical accounts, one that God asserts and one that you assert.  What is needed is for you to give actual evidence that your story actually happened.

No one disputes adaptation happens all the time.  However, adaptation doesn't prove that hydrogen turned into human beings over long periods of time.  God says He did it in six days.  Show your evidence that shows that your competing story is actually true.

The burden of proof in on you since God says that He created everything in six days and you are telling a different story.  Prove that your story actually took place.  Prove that the big bang actually happened, and then prove that life started spontaneously, and then prove that evolution let from simple forms of life to humanity.  Prove that it happened because that is not what God says to me.

Though your comment is false, I’m not going to answer it, since you are changing the subject to avoid answering my question.  Show your evidence, using science, for the concept of Naturalism and Materialism, the claim that God does nothing and doesn’t even exist.  I would like enough information about your experiments so that I can repeat them.

You make a false claim in order to change the subject, but you haven’t answered my question.  Please show everyone the scientific evidence that you have that molecules-to-man evolution actually took place. Don't give me what might be possible or some story without evidence.  Proving that something could have happened doesn't prove that it took place. Don't tell me it's self-evident.  That doesn't prove anything.  So show the evidence that it did take place. e.g. the billions of indisputable transitional fossils that show the gradual changes from molecules to man.

No thought is stronger than it's starting point.   My starting point is God, and you have full access to Him.  Whoever keeps sincerely, respectfully, & submissively seeking Him finds Him.  "Today, if you hear His Voice, don't harden your heart/mind."  He reveals that the Bible is accurate.  Your starting point is naturalistic science, so prove Naturalism to me.  Show scientific proof that God does not reveal anything to anyone--no more flimflam.

Some Atheists have realized that it is impossible to prove a universal negative.  As a result, they claim that God's existence is highly unlikely.  That doesn't work for them any better since it implies that they have scientifically determined the likelihood of God's existence--which they have not.

You claim that you don't say that God doesn't exist but that it is highly unlikely that He exists.  Please show me the scientific tests that were conducted to determine the likelihood of God's existence in a way that I could repeat those tests to verify them.

Atheists are realizing that their position is irrational.  In order to play mind games, some now claim that they have a lack of belief rather than disbelief.  However, no one gets dogmatic that their lack of belief should also be accepted by others.  Dogmatic unbelief does make for angry Atheists who disrupt conversations or heckle Christians.  So this is just a ploy on their part.  Answer by pointing this out.

You claim that you have a lack of belief and that you don't actually disbelieve in God.  Of course, you don't need a reason to lack belief or to not know.  People who simply lack real belief but have an open mind are not passionate enough to heckle those who believe or to argue for their passive lack of belief.  They would be willing, for instance, to pick up the Bible and read the Book of John while praying to God that He would make Himself real to them if He does exist, wouldn't they?

If they are abusive, here are some suggestions:

When you use bullying tactics, that shows me that you don’t have any substance to your position.  That’s why you haven’t answered my question.  Please show everyone the scientific evidence that you have that molecules-to-man evolution actually took place. Don't give me what might be possible or some story without evidence.  Proving that something could have happened doesn't prove that it took place. So show the evidence that it did take place. e.g. the billions of indisputable transitional fossils that show the gradual changes from molecules to man.

Using vulgarity proves that you have no real evidence of anything you are writing.  That’s why you haven’t answered my question.  Please show everyone the scientific evidence that you have that molecules-to-man evolution actually took place. Don't give me what might be possible or some story without evidence.  Proving that something could have happened doesn't prove that it took place. So show the evidence that it did take place. e.g. the billions of indisputable transitional fossils that show the gradual changes from molecules to man.

No thought is stronger than it's starting point.   My starting point is God, and you have full access to Him.  Whoever keeps sincerely, respectfully, & submissively seeking Him finds Him.  "Today, if you hear His Voice, don't harden your heart/mind."  He reveals that the Bible is accurate.  Your starting point is naturalistic science, so prove Naturalism to me.  Show scientific proof that God does not reveal anything to anyone--no more flimflam and bullying tactics.

Want even more help with trolls and evolution evangelists?  Look here.  Here is just a sample from that page beginning with this great quote by Darwin:

But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind? (Letter to William Graham, 3 July 1881, posted at the Darwin Correspondence Project.)

The article went on to say:

Logically, we hope you noticed that the Darwinian position is self-refuting.  Self-refuting positions are not just misguided, they are necessarily false.  They can never be true, now or ever.  This realization doesn’t dawn on most Darwinians, but it did on Darwin himself (read that quote from his letter to Graham again).  Darwin said that this “horrid doubt” always arises in his mind.  He worried about this right up to his death, long after he had become famous for his theory of natural selection.  How can the convictions of a man’s mind be reliable?  In the letter, he had no answer!  He never answered that doubt.  As far as we know, he died with that doubt in his mind, that everything he had propounded was no more reliable than whatever “convictions” exist in the mind of a monkey or one of the lower animals.

To be consistent, Darwin would have had to admit that his views are glorified monkey screeches.  They have no necessary connection to truth.  What is truth?  Ask the Konner-types if truth evolves.  Everything else in Darwin’s world changes.  If truth evolves, what is considered true today could be false tomorrow.  Evolutionary game theorists continually publish articles in leading journals that claim all that we consider good, true and beautiful is the result of behaviors that arise by natural selection, not by purpose or intent.  The aimless, mindless processes of selection produce “emergent properties” that only appear to be altruistic, truthful, and good.  They really aren’t!  They’re just arbitrary states of matter.  Even yeast colonies exhibit these behaviors, they claim, trying to assert that human behavior is no different.  So why should we view the NCSE as anything but an emergent property among human populations, that gains power for awhile, till the “religious” population grabs the ball?  Who is calling what religious, anyway?  In Darwin’s world, nothing has meaning.

This logical response is so crucial it is worth learning well.  C. S. Lewis used it.  G. K. Chesteron used it.  Now Alvin Plantinga and other modern philosophers are using it.  Understood and wielded well, this sword stops the Darwinist in his tracks.  We cannot allow a Darwinian to “help himself” to concepts of truth or beauty, because it’s a form of theft.  If we told them “get your own dirt” (see joke) they would be empty-handed.  If they try to argue that Darwinism is true, we must rap their knuckles and tell them to stop and define truth.  Does it evolve?  If so, game over.  A believer in God, by contrast, has the resources to justify belief in truth, because God, the eternal, unchanging One, is the source of Truth with a capital T.  As finite humans we may not always get our views right, but we have the one and only pole star to hitch our arguments to.  We can justify our belief in truth.  (Note: this is why belief in an impersonal designing “force” is inadequate.  A force like gravity does not deal in concepts, and concepts require personal communication.)

Some Darwinians try to wriggle out of the straitjacket by appeals to “evolutionary epistemology.”  This is the notion that natural selection, to work, required that animals “get the world right” to survive and reproduce.  That notion is easily dismissed by repeating the same point: survival has no necessary connection to truth.  Survival is pragmatic.  What helps an animal survive today might not tomorrow, so what a caveman thinks is true might be false in a million years.  At no time would an animal or human know what truth is.  Truth must be unchanging.

Simply put, unless an unchanging God is in control, there is no way that you can know anything.  There is no way that you could do science.  Most of Darwin's evangelists don't like to think about these problems.  They are busy working for their father, the devil himself.  They know that God exists.  We know this by revelation.  In the final analysis, it comes to a comparison between two types of faith.  There is ungodly faith (based on nothing, pulled from air, making the mind believe by repetition and tricks, make believe) and Christian faith (based on God speaking--"faith comes by hearing and hearing by the utterance of God."  "My sheep hear My Voice."  "Today, if you hear His Voice, don't harden your heart."    "Whoever seeks finds."

That's not to say that we always hear His voice correctly or that we are not sometimes fooled.  One of the purposes that God set up the church with apostles and local elders and deacons is to get around the human weakness.  And we have certainly seen the fall of many who have not honored God's pattern for the church.

"When evolution is seen as a storytelling game rather than a serious attempt at scientific explanation, it suddenly makes sense." - See more at: http://crev.info/2013/11/evolutionary-stories/

See the baloney detector for more information.

An excellent resource if you need answers



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Last updated: Mar, 2014
 
 




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